Of course it isn't OK to behead innocent people but 2 to 20 wrongs of any description will never make a right and I believe it was / is stupid to deliberately upset and insult a whole race and religion. I have no issue with cartoons re terrorists but the picture of the Prophet with a bomb implies that all Muslims are terrorists and that just isn't so. It is the terrorist who behead people not your ordinary every day Muslim. We have to be careful not to turn the terrorist threats into a racist issue and this particular cartoon, I think, does just that. Would you like to be portrayed as a terrorist or associated with them? I know I wouldn't. It is unfair and cruel. If cartoons like this are widely circulated and become the accepted norm it will incite real racial hatred ( from all sides ) and set us back years. ( I fear this has already happened. ) We have to learn that 'free speech' is not a passport to say and do what we like and certainly not anywhere we choose. National newspapers have to act more responsibly. This sort of thing plays right into the terrorists hands, gains them some support and puts us all in danger.
We also have to learn to live with other people but I think we lack understanding. Lots of things that have taken place in the past, under the banner of humour, have been made illegal over the years. There used to be an awful lot of racist jokes in this country but because of changes in the law you don't hear them so often.
It is very easy to put your head in the sand and say nothing but I don't honestly think that is the way forward. I would welcome further views on this matter but any out and out racist comments will be removed. I don't want anything to do with racists and jerks.
Kat, my first reaction was f-em if they can't take a joke, but after reading your response you do make a lot of sense. It's not fair to lump all muslins to be terrorists just as it's not right for the terrorists to lump all non-muslims as infidels and we must be killed. It is unfortunate that we are dealing with a mentality that is very extreme to say the least and they do not see eye to eye with other people (as I don't with them) Someone somewhere has to try to break the cycle. You've opened my eyes a little more, thanks.
Phil - Yes, both sides have to make an effort to understand each other. Provoking the situation plays into the extremist hands and I don't think we should give them the ammunition. I think we also need to be careful not to become extremist ourselves.
The US is lead by a bunch of extremists too, and there is the whole fundamental christian movement and jerks like Pat Robertson who influence many people. I do wish people would lighten up though. I'm Irish and I take no offense to drunken Irish jokes. There are a lot of misguided, backward thinking people in this world (IMO) who have to realize that we all need to get along. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to have my shot of whiskey for breakfast and wake up our 14 kids
Well, first off: I have NO clue what a 'Racist-Orientalist' is. Except for that it's probably overspecified.
And the whole bit about not being allowed to make pictures featuring their prophet: http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/ (Seriously, take some time and study that page. Some quite impressive works of art there).
Also, many of the protesters have never even SEEN these pictures. Their imam told them to go and fight the Danish, and now I think also the Norwegians, and the French, and off they went. Out of all proportions.
Tolerance from both sides should be the word of the day, and understanding, and freedom of speech is sacred. Parody, as an art form, also falls under that freedom of speech. I don't have to like it (and I don't) but I will defend this guy's right to make such a statement.
If we don't, out the window goes every act of satire and parody ever written, which includes all my favorite Python movies. So I fight!
I understand your point of view and agree that it should be understanding and tolerance from all sides but what do we mean by that? Do we mean that we can understand that it is okay to print what we like and they should just tolerate it? I'm sure you didn't mean that at all.
When National newspapers know that printing stuff is going to give ammunition to extremists, I honestly don't think it is a good idea - Not in the current climate. Look at the trouble is has and is likely to cause. Look at the damage it is doing to the Nations concerned. National newspapers do have some responsibilities re National security - Don't you think? I would go as far as to say that they have some responsibility to-wards promoting racial harmony.
I also agree that showing cartoons of the prophet doesn't justify threats in any way but I think your ordinary every day Muslim is getting a bit tired of being portrayed or thought of as a terrorist. They want to live peacefully without insult. This episode has genuinely upset and insulted them but it is only the extremist or those in ignorance who are threatening violence. We shouldn't associate all Muslims with that. If the cartoons had been simple drawings of the prophet or about terrorists, rather than associating the prophet with terrorists, I don't think the extremists would have been able to whip up the same amount of support and there wouldn't have been this uproar - I don't think so anyway. I honestly don't think the National newpapers were the place for these cartoons.
There are laws and conventions about racist remarks, insults, accusations and actions. Do you think that 'art' should be beyond and above these laws? What if the newspapers had printed a written article or published written jokes on the same or similar matters or is it a case, do you think, that newpapers should be able to print anything at all without fear of being prosecuted or called into question?. I don't think it is the right time to assert our right to offend anyone we choose, in any place, at anytime. I'm not sure we should have or want that right anyway.
I think we are all trying to assert our right to free speech because be are fearful that the Muslims will take over. Now lets be honest about that instead of saying 'It's only a cartoon - They should grow up'. It is a matter of more understanding as you say. The more we get to know and understand each other the easier life will be. To start that process though we need to show a little understanding now.
We do have the right to humour and I wouldn't like to see a world without it but if we joke about someone and they don't like it they also have the right to protest. Peacefully of course. (The problem I've found with free speech is that if I open my mouth and say something I shouldn't, there is always someone willing to smack me in it.)
Both you and I are using the right to free speech but we are not deliberately hurting one another or drawing cartoons of each other on our blogs - You're not are you? I will check!!! :-)))))
That was an awful lot of text just to say that on balance I think the world would be a better place without those cartoons at the moment. :-)
The problem with freedom of speech is that once you start limiting it it will soon disappear. Or so I feel. Therefore I put the freedom of speech in as wide a definition I can think of.
So yes, I will defend the freedom of speech of lowly folks like racists and haters and religious nuts. Of course, by spewing nasty filth they will expose themselves for the idiots they are and therefore be excluded from polite society. This would be the limiting social factor, and the ONLY limiting factor.
Because what is happening now is beyond control: should we start burning embassies, threathening citizens of certain nations, try to kill those who we feel have done us wrong simply because they say something we don't like?
I leave you with some quotes I find compelling: "If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell
"Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you're in favor of free speech, then you're in favor of freedom of speech precisely for views you despise. Otherwise, you're not in favor of free speech." Noam Chomsky, Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media (1992).
"In a free state, tongues too should be free." Erasmus, The Education of a Christian Prince (1516).
"The price of freedom of religion, or of speech, or of the press, is that we must put up with a good deal of rubbish." Robert H. Jackson
"The principle of free thought is not free thought for those who agree with us but freedom for the thought we hate." US Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes in United States v. Schwimmer (1929).
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". Evelyn Beatrice Hall writing as S.G. Tallentyre in 1906 (Commonly attributed to Voltaire of whom Hall wrote a biography).
Free speech in principle is very very important, Michiel but we don't always exercise our right to use it - and for good reason. We don't use free speech when we talk to our boss at work, we don't delibarately offend people in the street ( not usually anyway ) and we don't upset our family or people we want to get along with. We choose the time and place and pick the circumstances carefully. It's called self control. As I think I've said before a lot of responsibilities come with free speech. Unfortunately and in truth we are not actually allowed to use free speech at any time and in any place we choose. There are many places we would be evicted from if we said too much in public. Say the wrong thing, in the wrong place, in the wrong circumstances and you could find yourself in court or in some kind of trouble. It isn't always good for us and we know that. That's why most of us stop and think before we speak. We try to be diplomatic.
Using free speech badly will not ensure that we keep it. In truth it is the way we lose it. Restrictions are put on those who do not exercise self control and those restrictions end up applying to the rest of us - Our freedom of speech is eroded.
“I don't know why people think that somehow the First Amendment applies to network television. It doesn't. It's like the way free speech doesn't apply at work. You can't just walk into your boss' office and say 'you're a fuckface and I'm gonna go back to work now.' No, you're not.” NoxTheLost Jon Stewart quotes (American Comedian and Actor, b.1962)
There are times when we have to stand up and say what we think on our own and others behalf but I don't think the cartoons were called for or necessary. I think these particular cartoons were in bad taste.
Quote from that piece: But the Danish cartoons were not arbitrarily offensive. They were designed to reveal Islamic intolerance--and they have now done so, in abundance.
This is what seems so odd and unnecessary to me. We already knew that the extremists and the terrorists are intolerant so why provoke them and at the same time upset millions of people, whose help we need in the fight against terrorism. We can’t do it without them.
It seems like a propaganda stunt designed to promote racial hatred from both sides and unfortunately, in many cases it is working.
More important than free speech is the freedom to think for yourself and keep your mind open in an ever changing and turbulent world.
Death threats are not acceptable but do the majority of Muslims, especially those living in the west, want to kill people?
I don't think the majority in the west want to kill us, I think they may tend to be more open minded. I'm no scholar on this at all, but I really don't see all of the major religions EVER getting along with each other. They never did. It's a shame, I think they all miss the point of a God...
More important than free speech is the freedom to think for yourself and keep your mind open in an ever changing and turbulent world. I like what you said here.
14 comments:
Of course it isn't OK to behead innocent people but 2 to 20 wrongs of any description will never make a right and I believe it was / is stupid to deliberately upset and insult a whole race and religion. I have no issue with cartoons re terrorists but the picture of the Prophet with a bomb implies that all Muslims are terrorists and that just isn't so. It is the terrorist who behead people not your ordinary every day Muslim. We have to be careful not to turn the terrorist threats into a racist issue and this particular cartoon, I think, does just that. Would you like to be portrayed as a terrorist or associated with them? I know I wouldn't. It is unfair and cruel. If cartoons like this are widely circulated and become the accepted norm it will incite real racial hatred ( from all sides ) and set us back years. ( I fear this has already happened. ) We have to learn that 'free speech' is not a passport to say and do what we like and certainly not anywhere we choose. National newspapers have to act more responsibly. This sort of thing plays right into the terrorists hands, gains them some support and puts us all in danger.
We also have to learn to live with other people but I think we lack understanding. Lots of things that have taken place in the past, under the banner of humour, have been made illegal over the years. There used to be an awful lot of racist jokes in this country but because of changes in the law you don't hear them so often.
It is very easy to put your head in the sand and say nothing but I don't honestly think that is the way forward. I would welcome further views on this matter but any out and out racist comments will be removed. I don't want anything to do with racists and jerks.
We need to seek out peace not war.
Kat, my first reaction was f-em if they can't take a joke, but after reading your response you do make a lot of sense. It's not fair to lump all muslins to be terrorists just as it's not right for the terrorists to lump all non-muslims as infidels and we must be killed. It is unfortunate that we are dealing with a mentality that is very extreme to say the least and they do not see eye to eye with other people (as I don't with them) Someone somewhere has to try to break the cycle. You've opened my eyes a little more, thanks.
I still miss the commies though...
Phil - Yes, both sides have to make an effort to understand each other.
Provoking the situation plays into the extremist hands and I don't think we should give them the ammunition. I think we also need to be careful not to become extremist ourselves.
The US is lead by a bunch of extremists too, and there is the whole fundamental christian movement and jerks like Pat Robertson who influence many people. I do wish people would lighten up though. I'm Irish and I take no offense to drunken Irish jokes. There are a lot of misguided, backward thinking people in this world (IMO) who have to realize that we all need to get along.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to have my shot of whiskey for breakfast and wake up our 14 kids
Well, first off: I have NO clue what a 'Racist-Orientalist' is. Except for that it's probably overspecified.
And the whole bit about not being allowed to make pictures featuring their prophet:
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/
(Seriously, take some time and study that page. Some quite impressive works of art there).
Also, many of the protesters have never even SEEN these pictures. Their imam told them to go and fight the Danish, and now I think also the Norwegians, and the French, and off they went.
Out of all proportions.
Tolerance from both sides should be the word of the day, and understanding, and freedom of speech is sacred. Parody, as an art form, also falls under that freedom of speech. I don't have to like it (and I don't) but I will defend this guy's right to make such a statement.
If we don't, out the window goes every act of satire and parody ever written, which includes all my favorite Python movies. So I fight!
:P
Well, dang. The link didn't take.
here is that image archive.
Hi Michael.
I understand your point of view and agree that it should be understanding and tolerance from all sides but what do we mean by that? Do we mean that we can understand that it is okay to print what we like and they should just tolerate it? I'm sure you didn't mean that at all.
When National newspapers know that printing stuff is going to give ammunition to extremists, I honestly don't think it is a good idea - Not in the current climate. Look at the trouble is has and is likely to cause. Look at the damage it is doing to the Nations concerned. National newspapers do have some responsibilities re National security - Don't you think? I would go as far as to say that they have some responsibility to-wards promoting racial harmony.
I also agree that showing cartoons of the prophet doesn't justify threats in any way but I think your ordinary every day Muslim is getting a bit tired of being portrayed or thought of as a terrorist. They want to live peacefully without insult. This episode has genuinely upset and insulted them but it is only the extremist or those in ignorance who are threatening violence. We shouldn't associate all Muslims with that. If the cartoons had been simple drawings of the prophet or about terrorists, rather than associating the prophet with terrorists, I don't think the extremists would have been able to whip up the same amount of support and there wouldn't have been this uproar - I don't think so anyway. I honestly don't think the National newpapers were the place for these cartoons.
There are laws and conventions about racist remarks, insults, accusations and actions. Do you think that 'art' should be beyond and above these laws? What if the newspapers had printed a written article or published written jokes on the same or similar matters or is it a case, do you think, that newpapers should be able to print anything at all without fear of being prosecuted or called into question?. I don't think it is the right time to assert our right to offend anyone we choose, in any place, at anytime. I'm not sure we should have or want that right anyway.
I think we are all trying to assert our right to free speech because be are fearful that the Muslims will take over. Now lets be honest about that instead of saying 'It's only a cartoon - They should grow up'. It is a matter of more understanding as you say. The more we get to know and understand each other the easier life will be. To start that process though we need to show a little understanding now.
We do have the right to humour and I wouldn't like to see a world without it but if we joke about someone and they don't like it they also have the right to protest. Peacefully of course. (The problem I've found with free speech is that if I open my mouth and say something I shouldn't, there is always someone willing to smack me in it.)
Both you and I are using the right to free speech but we are not deliberately hurting one another or drawing cartoons of each other on our blogs - You're not are you? I will check!!! :-)))))
That was an awful lot of text just to say that on balance I think the world would be a better place without those cartoons at the moment. :-)
The problem with freedom of speech is that once you start limiting it it will soon disappear. Or so I feel. Therefore I put the freedom of speech in as wide a definition I can think of.
So yes, I will defend the freedom of speech of lowly folks like racists and haters and religious nuts. Of course, by spewing nasty filth they will expose themselves for the idiots they are and therefore be excluded from polite society. This would be the limiting social factor, and the ONLY limiting factor.
Because what is happening now is beyond control: should we start burning embassies, threathening citizens of certain nations, try to kill those who we feel have done us wrong simply because they say something we don't like?
I leave you with some quotes I find compelling:
"If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell
"Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you're in favor of free speech, then you're in favor of freedom of speech precisely for views you despise. Otherwise, you're not in favor of free speech." Noam Chomsky, Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media (1992).
"In a free state, tongues too should be free." Erasmus, The Education of a Christian Prince (1516).
"The price of freedom of religion, or of speech, or of the press, is that we must put up with a good deal of rubbish." Robert H. Jackson
"The principle of free thought is not free thought for those who agree with us but freedom for the thought we hate." US Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes in United States v. Schwimmer (1929).
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". Evelyn Beatrice Hall writing as S.G. Tallentyre in 1906 (Commonly attributed to Voltaire of whom Hall wrote a biography).
(quotes snagged from Wikipedia)
Free speech in principle is very very important, Michiel but we don't always exercise our right to use it - and for good reason. We don't use free speech when we talk to our boss at work, we don't delibarately offend people in the street ( not usually anyway ) and we don't upset our family or people we want to get along with. We choose the time and place and pick the circumstances carefully. It's called self control. As I think I've said before a lot of responsibilities come with free speech. Unfortunately and in truth we are not actually allowed to use free speech at any time and in any place we choose. There are many places we would be evicted from if we said too much in public. Say the wrong thing, in the wrong place, in the wrong circumstances and you could find yourself in court or in some kind of trouble. It isn't always good for us and we know that. That's why most of us stop and think before we speak. We try to be diplomatic.
Using free speech badly will not ensure that we keep it. In truth it is the way we lose it. Restrictions are put on those who do not exercise self control and those restrictions end up applying to the rest of us - Our freedom of speech is eroded.
“I don't know why people think that somehow the First Amendment applies to network television. It doesn't. It's like the way free speech doesn't apply at work. You can't just walk into your boss' office and say 'you're a fuckface and I'm gonna go back to work now.' No, you're not.”
NoxTheLost Jon Stewart quotes (American Comedian and Actor, b.1962)
There are times when we have to stand up and say what we think on our own and others behalf but I don't think the cartoons were called for or necessary. I think these particular cartoons were in bad taste.
Interesting counterpoint, I think we're going to let it rest here as
a) this comments page is longer than my blog now
and
b) I think you have other matters on your mind at the moment.
Good luck to your mom, I hope she checks out OK.
A bit of a marathon wasn't it.
:-)
All I would say to anyone is please don't tarnish all Muslims with the same extremist brush.
All extremists of any religion are barmy.
Hi Kat, this was from the current TIME Magazine
Quote from that piece: But the Danish cartoons were not arbitrarily offensive. They were designed to reveal Islamic intolerance--and they have now done so, in abundance.
This is what seems so odd and unnecessary to me. We already knew that the extremists and the terrorists are intolerant so why provoke them and at the same time upset millions of people, whose help we need in the fight against terrorism. We can’t do it without them.
It seems like a propaganda stunt designed to promote racial hatred from both sides and unfortunately, in many cases it is working.
More important than free speech is the freedom to think for yourself and keep your mind open in an ever changing and turbulent world.
Death threats are not acceptable but do the majority of Muslims, especially those living in the west, want to kill people?
I don't think the majority in the west want to kill us, I think they may tend to be more open minded. I'm no scholar on this at all, but I really don't see all of the major religions EVER getting along with each other. They never did. It's a shame, I think they all miss the point of a God...
More important than free speech is the freedom to think for yourself and keep your mind open in an ever changing and turbulent world. I like what you said here.
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